Christine Way Skinner Interview with Dr. Catherine Clifford
Professor Catherine Clifford is one of the Canadian delegates chosen to be a voting member at the synod this fall. She is a professor of Systematic and Historical Theology at Saint Paul University in Ottawa. While in Rome, CLC Board member Christine Way Skinner, had the opportunity to interview Professor Clifford. Here is the transcription of that interview.
Clifford is an ecclesiologist, which means she thinks about and studies the nature of the church. So, I asked her, “As an ecclesiologist, how has this Synod affected her perspective?
Professor Clifford responded that her first impression was: “I have spent my whole life reflecting on how the church needs to be renewed and reformed and have been following the synodal process with great interest. Wow! And then I get invited to the table. That's shocking! What an honour is to be here!” She noted that the primary “purpose of the synod is to help us become a more synodal church.” She explained that during the meetings, delegates are “looking at a host of questions, very complex, heavy issues that all have to do with reform.” She never expected to see these questions being addressed in her lifetime. Indeed, she said, “Many of the topics that are on the agenda today – we could not have discussed openly without being accused of being disloyal or unorthodox. For a period of several decades, there wasn't space for a diversity of perspectives.” Of course, she is not exactly sure where these conversations will take us as a church, and she cautions that the kind of reforms being proposed will take at least a generation to implement.
I then inquired about the structure of the synodal conversations. There are a lot of very famous people at this synod and people with lots of power and there are also people who are relatively unknown. How do conversations happen in this context?
She told me that “the whole procedure of the synod is to create a dynamic where everyone has an equal voice.” That, she noted is a significant change in the dynamics of the synod of bishops. “Big names don’t have any more access to the microphone or freedom to speak than anyone else.” Delegates sit in groups of eleven or twelve around round tables with one person acting as a facilitator. No single participant is governing the process. Everyone must listen to what each person around the table has to say. There are people from every continent in the world as well as fraternal delegates from other Christian World Communions. After listening, delegates are invited to be silent and prayerfully pay attention to what moves them. “This,” said Professor Clifford “requires a kind of asceticism.” This is not “a debate about ideas.” Rather it is “listening to and discerning the lived experience of the churches.” For Clifford, this has been a profound experience in which conversations between people who on the surface appear to be very different and with whom disagreement seems likely, find themselves identifying important things that bind them together.
Clifford has also been involved in ecumenical dialogue for many years (she is presently a member of the Methodist-Roman Catholic International Commission) and so I asked her if the ecumenical virtues she has developed in speaking with people from different Christian traditions has been helpful training for her participation in synodal conversations.
She immediately responded that her experience of ecumenical dialogue has certainly helped her enter into this kind of process of listening. Both synodal and ecumenical conversations are about “listening to hear what the other is really saying and how they understand themselves and to hear sometimes behind differences in language and emphases or differences in practice the same ecclesial values or the same basic ideas that are guiding people.” Another “big rule” for dialogue is to enter the dialogue presuming the good faith of your dialogue partner and not looking to find fault with the other. As well, “every step of the way” it is important to look at oneself and one’s own church. The Decree on Ecumenism reminds us that we need to ask what needs to be reformed or renewed in our own household so we can more faithfully reflect the gospel. We, therefore, need to enter into conversation with “humility”, with a “readiness to learn through these conversations and to undertake the kind of renewal and reforms that are necessary in my own church’s, life and practice.” Professor Clifford believes that is what we are asking collectively through the synodal process.
As a final question, I asked Professor Clifford to suggest a piece of art that speaks to the experience of participating in the synod.
Her first response was to point to the art in the room in the Vatican's Paul VI Audience Hall where the synodal delegates meet. “Behind us or in front of us, depending on where you sit every day, there are two pieces of art. One is that beautiful bronze sculpture of the Risen Christ by Pericle Fazzini. And then there's the sixth century icon of the Madonna and child, Salus Populi Romani, for which Francis has a great affinity.” For Clifford, seeing the Risen Christ every day is a really hopeful sign. As well, it is a sculpture full of movement which she believes expresses the energy in the room. Another image that speaks of synodality is the mosaic of the Cross and Tree of Life which extend to a vine that fills the apse of the Basilica of San Clemente. For her, this is a very synodal image indicating the way in which “so many things are all are connected but rooted in Christ.” These images of life and resurrection are important because the cross leads to resurrection. While we may be living through a time of difficulty in the church and there is grief around the death of certain aspects of the church, Clifford is hopeful. “There's new birth. There's new life. There's new hope. And that is what we're listening for and wanting to nurture in the synodal process. These are seeds of new life for the future of the church.”
CLC is so grateful to Professor Clifford for offering us her time for this interview and we keep her and all synodal delegates in our prayers.